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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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oh and welcome to the skeptics own

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episode number 293 for the first of June

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2014 another month another month goes by

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the first of June richardsaunders here

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with you from Sydney Australia trying a

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new system this week for recording this

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intro I've got a really really nice

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sennheiser microphone and i've had for a

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while that I used to use in making

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videos which I've retrieved from the

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cupboard hooked it up to my zoom

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microphone which I normally used to do

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the intros I'm standing now in the

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middle of Maya lounge dining room with

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the microphone on a large cat post and

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then sort of sitting inside a big old

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cup yeah and I'm standing here with my

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laptop in my arm so I can read my notes

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visualize that visualize that or you

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don't have to visualize that I mean you

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know if you don't want to I think I

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think I better tell you what's coming up

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on this week's show more from Iran sir

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given his recent trip to QED in

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Manchester question explore discover one

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of the premier skeptical scientific sort

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of reason conventions in the world I

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must say this week Ron chats to Nate

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Phelps now here's an interesting man

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he's the son of fred phelps the late

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fred phelps from the Westboro Baptist

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Church the people who still as far as I

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know protest things god hates signs

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you've probably seen those on the news

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and on the internet god hates this God

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hates that so Nate Phelps the son of

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fred phelps lift that whole religious

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seen quite some time ago and i think

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you'll find this interview very

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interesting indeed to find out what it

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was like from his point of view from

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Nate's point of view growing up in this

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sort of environment and also we find out

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what he's doing now after that it's a

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wig in designs from our good friends at

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the Royal Institution of Australia ww

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you are I aus der dog today you and for

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all those people who went to the science

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of Doctor Who which was traveling around

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the country I'm sure you enjoyed it as

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much as I do thank you are IRS and BBC

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then after that I travel up to the Blue

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Mountains just west of Sydney for the

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day to do some filming for the

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vaccination Chronicles and thank you Joe

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alabaster a new report agile a bust of

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helping me up on the day being behind

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the scenes on the camera helping me with

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the script and thank you too Peter

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ratbags bowditch who was also there who

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I interviewed now after all the filming

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is done we find a nice veranda and a

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nice old hotel and have a chat about the

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Blue Mountains and what it's like to

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live there in certain vaccination issues

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and what it's like to try to film must

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say I've had a little bit of that well

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I've had my share of a few unlucky

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things going on lately trying to film

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with noises going off and unfavorable

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lighting conditions and me for getting

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my script and we're getting there though

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we're getting there folks then to round

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off the show something completely

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different but very worth while listening

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to Maynard spooky action maynards going

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to be talking to dr. Peter Davies about

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I health and macular degeneration not

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quite a sceptical topic ok yes I'll

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grant you that but um really really

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interesting and really good advice dr.

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Peter Davies will give you really good

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advice about a very simple check you can

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do to test your eye health so let's put

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this one in the category of good science

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good scientific the base medicine in

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action that's to round off the show

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please visit www.bucks calm today you to

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find out more about our upcoming

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convention in November with the skeptics

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guide to the universe Dick Smith dr.

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Reggie dr. Carl Cruz menisci a cast of

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thousands cast of thousands tickets are

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on sale looking

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forward to that looking forward to

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catching up to a lot of my friends at

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the amazing meeting in Las Vegas it'll

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be so great to see James Randi once

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again and thank you for those people who

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do help the skeptic zone by chipping in

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via micro payments on paypal and if you

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want if you want to put a link on the

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skeptics own page at wwc a peg on TV

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I've put a few of my arm photographs of

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origami up on insta prints is the prints

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like Instagram insta prints where you

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can purchase a framed copy of some of my

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money foldings and things like that well

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if you're interested you can check that

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out and of course all proceeds go to

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help the skeptics own podcast well

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that's all from me at the moment since

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i'm downstairs anyway there's no point

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in me running even further down stairs

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what's this this is a big jar of

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couscous haven't had that for a while

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hmm why not while I heat up and cook

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undo whatever you do with couscous I

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think it's a good with a bit of chili

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it'll take this with a grain of salt

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seas around ticket so i'm here with nate

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phelps ladies known to many skeptics as

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the survivor of the Westboro Baptist

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Church showing the Sun in the Sun I'm

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sorry I had to say that way I'm duh and

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a son of the late Fred Phelps and I

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would like to first ask you about how

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you enjoy QED here and what's your

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impression is so far wet no actually I

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like a lot I love the people the accent

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I'm a people watcher so I sitting in the

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bar and i watch people go by it it's

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interesting that you see certain British

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characters I don't know if I'm saying

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that right but certain looks that are

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very British bowler hats no not that I'm

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talking about like facial features and

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you know like this there's a lot of the

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tall whether they call them gingers yeah

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and just a lot of the stereotype ideas

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that i have about the British and I see

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them in the people right but other than

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that this is this is nothing like I

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thought it would be when you see some of

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the old British look out on the street

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but this is a very metropolitan country

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now compared to what you were you

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typically thinking all right typically

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think so if you have you had a lot of

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discussions here with different people

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yeah okay so and and found out a lot of

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differences like I have to actually go

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to the bar to particular great instead

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of this the waitress coming to the table

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that's just not right you know in

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Australia you can't buy alcohol and

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supermarket you can now you cannot you

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cannot there's special specialized shops

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called bottle shops

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see that you have actually Canada's that

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way too oh cool yeah yeah but England's

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not she's the one that started all this

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nonsense and then they then they renege

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and they leave it up to us all these

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yeah we'll be all the outcome if they

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know you say you mentioned Kennedy

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you're not leaving Canada I mean on to

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it you know originally from no no I from

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the states yeah born and raised in

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Topeka where my were the churches and

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spent 25 years in Southern California

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and then moved up to Canada and in

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December of 2005 so moving to canada in

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december that's quite brave but apart

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from that but apart from that about from

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that say you grew up in the u.s. in in

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the defective I don't know whether

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famous or infamous or both this is the

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correct term but Phelps family you were

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one of 13 if i remember correctly yeah

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so would you care to tell you tell me a

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little bit about that big your

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experience yeah it's of course it's

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impossible to encapsulate at all in the

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short period of time so i would say that

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it was it was intense it was dogmatic

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and it was violent both physically and

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psychologically of course you don't know

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that growing up there it just was what

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it was but when you have that many

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children running around and then my

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father for all of his his faults was a

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very energetic person it was constantly

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coming up with new ideas and do things

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that he wanted to do and then he would

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he would in script the kids so for

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instance he was he got really sick

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because he'd let himself going his

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weight was high in and came back from

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some trip and ended up in the hospital

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so he comes out of the hospital and

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suddenly he's on a mission to get

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healthy again and that translated to

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well at that time I think it would have

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been about 10 of us 10 kids and my mom

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and my dad and we're out running around

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the local high school track 10 miles a

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night within two or three months you

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know so that it was that kind of

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anything he did it would it was manic

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and it was extreme and and so that's

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kind of how we learned about the world

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we were in but you mentioned in an

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earlier discussion that we had that he

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actually went to public school yep

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that's interesting because my father had

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had such control over the the family in

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the church at least this is how I look

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at it now because a lot of people

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expressed surprise that that we weren't

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cloistered we weren't home schooled on

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that concept it just was never an issue

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but what he did do is he reached out to

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the schools and he made darn sure that

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they weren't doing anything he didn't

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want him to do so like when I was in

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grade school if they they were still

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doing like Christmas carols and and

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having events in the classrooms

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surrounding Christmastime and my father

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you know we didn't celebrate Christmas

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so he saw to it that every time they

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were going to do anything Christmasy

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that they had to first remove any Phelps

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kids from the classroom and send us down

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to the library and they did what they

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did and we went back and why you know so

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different Christmas I am NOT asking you

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for the reason I'm asking you for the

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excuse no yeah it seems to me like it

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was is the Bible didn't charge us to

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celebrate his birth but rather his death

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that was kind of it was and it had its

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roots in paganism and that kind of stuff

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so that was the reasons that he gave

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that we worship we weren't supposed to

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be celebrating the birth of Christ yeah

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I'm not sure if that's true or not if

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you look at you read the Bible properly

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I've stopped at the end of the Old

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Testament sir that's right you don't

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have you don't have access Ivan bad

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accident not allowed to open that well

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sure but this sounds like this I mean

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there was definitely a different kind of

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theology involved here and there's these

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two things I would like you to perhaps

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tell me a little bit more about first of

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all about how that theology reflector

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Denis what what what did you actually

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know and what was simply part of the

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environment and the other thing I wanted

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to to know is more around the

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relationship between the Phelps family

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in westborough baptist church in terms

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of is it just one in the same or is that

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other extensions that is just the mummy

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daddy and 13 kids always if he's more

270
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:20,150
than that you could yeah well let me let

271
00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:21,410
me talk on that first and we'll go back

272
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:22,910
so i can get clarity on that first

273
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:25,850
question the whole time i was growing up

274
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:28,490
there it was it was primarily my family

275
00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:31,850
and then there was two smaller families

276
00:13:37,690 --> 00:13:34,880
one was the haka burgers no really

277
00:13:40,450 --> 00:13:37,700
seriously holcomb barbers and okay and

278
00:13:42,570 --> 00:13:40,460
and the other family was the Davises and

279
00:13:47,530 --> 00:13:42,580
they had the haka barters had three kids

280
00:13:52,030 --> 00:13:47,540
Davis has had four so that was it that

281
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:52,040
was so seven eight nine eleven there was

282
00:13:57,070 --> 00:13:53,930
about 25 people in that church on a

283
00:13:59,470 --> 00:13:57,080
typical sunday from time to time people

284
00:14:03,580 --> 00:13:59,480
would come and go it didn't last very

285
00:14:04,690 --> 00:14:03,590
long folks what's often times someone

286
00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:04,700
would show up for the morning service

287
00:14:07,540 --> 00:14:06,260
and we never saw him again you know they

288
00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:07,550
would be driving by and they'd see the

289
00:14:14,010 --> 00:14:10,000
sign and decide to

290
00:14:16,050 --> 00:14:14,020
to check it out and I remember on more

291
00:14:18,330 --> 00:14:16,060
than one occasion the old men get this

292
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:18,340
kind of wry grin on his face when

293
00:14:23,370 --> 00:14:20,410
someone new would come in and he would

294
00:14:25,230 --> 00:14:23,380
make a show of taking his sermon that he

295
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:25,240
was going to preach and putting it in

296
00:14:31,530 --> 00:14:27,930
the pulpit and then pulling out his

297
00:14:33,180 --> 00:14:31,540
helps toast and it's basically scare him

298
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:33,190
off right he was going to hit him with

299
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:35,050
both barrels and then if they didn't

300
00:14:39,210 --> 00:14:36,490
stick around they weren't they weren't

301
00:14:41,340 --> 00:14:39,220
put yet anyway right so they were we

302
00:14:43,830 --> 00:14:41,350
were pretty much the church was the

303
00:14:48,210 --> 00:14:43,840
phelps family church was fred phelps

304
00:14:49,470 --> 00:14:48,220
really yeah so yeah so the perhaps the

305
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:49,480
second question but I would be very

306
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:51,490
interested to follow that up with what's

307
00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:53,170
going to happen now but but let's let's

308
00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:54,910
fish down what it was the first question

309
00:14:58,830 --> 00:14:57,040
you can see about theology about what

310
00:15:01,290 --> 00:14:58,840
were we touch so yeah so I mean

311
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:01,300
obviously your father had a his own

312
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:04,210
peculiar theology the question is how

313
00:15:07,140 --> 00:15:05,440
much of it was simply part of the

314
00:15:09,810 --> 00:15:07,150
environment almost I would call it

315
00:15:11,940 --> 00:15:09,820
cultural and how much was consciously

316
00:15:13,860 --> 00:15:11,950
religious in a sense of you are aware of

317
00:15:17,220 --> 00:15:13,870
the reasoning behind it you are aware of

318
00:15:18,690 --> 00:15:17,230
what the intent was so how much work was

319
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:18,700
of it was really religious and how much

320
00:15:25,140 --> 00:15:22,530
which was was just populated a life on

321
00:15:28,079 --> 00:15:25,150
Sundays it was a hundred percent

322
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:28,089
religious and my father was very serious

323
00:15:37,110 --> 00:15:33,930
about teaching everyone in that church

324
00:15:39,210 --> 00:15:37,120
what the Bible had to say so he would

325
00:15:45,770 --> 00:15:39,220
spend hours and he would get into the

326
00:15:48,270 --> 00:15:45,780
nuances and and you know parsing the the

327
00:15:51,870 --> 00:15:48,280
the meaning of that word or this word to

328
00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:51,880
end and was very particular about how

329
00:15:58,770 --> 00:15:54,220
then we behaved and expressed that in

330
00:16:02,190 --> 00:15:58,780
our in our lives right for instance I

331
00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:02,200
talked about his interpretation of the

332
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:04,480
word

333
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:07,490
long we're talking about women's hair

334
00:16:13,420 --> 00:16:10,610
and I believe it's in first Corinthians

335
00:16:16,030 --> 00:16:13,430
he said that word was was improperly

336
00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:16,040
translated it should actually say it be

337
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:19,310
translated as uncut so women just didn't

338
00:16:26,740 --> 00:16:22,910
cut their hair so those kind of details

339
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:26,750
were strictly adhere to but what was

340
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:29,090
very interesting was once we got out of

341
00:16:38,010 --> 00:16:31,970
the church and it was monday morning

342
00:16:45,070 --> 00:16:42,990
ineffective we were at adhering to the

343
00:16:48,850 --> 00:16:45,080
doctrines so to speak that were they

344
00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:48,860
were taught on Sundays my father had he

345
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:51,920
had a mouth on him and that was an issue

346
00:16:55,690 --> 00:16:53,570
that you know we were taught as kids you

347
00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:55,700
don't you know you're certain words he

348
00:16:58,660 --> 00:16:57,170
had no qualms about doing that he had no

349
00:17:00,940 --> 00:16:58,670
qualms about treating people a certain

350
00:17:04,660 --> 00:17:00,950
way and to me that was part and parcel

351
00:17:05,980 --> 00:17:04,670
of what being a Christian was and there

352
00:17:08,020 --> 00:17:05,990
certainly worked only a plenty of

353
00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:08,030
passages he may not have spent a lot of

354
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:10,910
time stressing but they were there about

355
00:17:16,449 --> 00:17:13,490
how you treated people right so there

356
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:16,459
was from the very beginning once I was

357
00:17:20,890 --> 00:17:19,010
at an age of awareness and being able to

358
00:17:23,650 --> 00:17:20,900
to look and say what wait a minute this

359
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:23,660
doesn't fit there was a lot of hypocrisy

360
00:17:29,950 --> 00:17:25,970
between the words and the actions right

361
00:17:35,910 --> 00:17:29,960
so he was very sincere about getting it

362
00:17:39,910 --> 00:17:35,920
right dr. Lee but there was a curious

363
00:17:41,380 --> 00:17:39,920
disconnect and how he applied it in the

364
00:17:47,170 --> 00:17:41,390
way he behaved in there in

365
00:17:49,390 --> 00:17:47,180
in the real world and he's a most

366
00:17:52,980 --> 00:17:49,400
listeners would know he's passed away

367
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:52,990
recently few weeks ago yeah the 19th

368
00:17:59,470 --> 00:17:57,440
through the 19th of March yeah so this

369
00:18:04,680 --> 00:17:59,480
is something we've discussed a couple of

370
00:18:11,020 --> 00:18:07,750
obviously he was your father I mean

371
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:11,030
regardless of the long disconnects and

372
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:13,730
the fact that you disagreed on on

373
00:18:18,610 --> 00:18:15,530
probably more than you would have agreed

374
00:18:20,260 --> 00:18:18,620
on yeah it was your father and how was

375
00:18:26,050 --> 00:18:20,270
your response how did you feel about

376
00:18:28,330 --> 00:18:26,060
that well when you decide to leave that

377
00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:28,340
church you or ostracize you're cut off

378
00:18:36,430 --> 00:18:33,710
so effectively on my 18th birthday or

379
00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:36,440
soon thereafter I was I no longer had a

380
00:18:41,740 --> 00:18:38,990
family you know well I had a brother in

381
00:18:46,570 --> 00:18:41,750
her butt but the lion's share my family

382
00:18:48,130 --> 00:18:46,580
was was cut off so at first you go

383
00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:48,140
through a process of saying well not

384
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:49,760
really you know there's we can make this

385
00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:51,050
work out in that kind of stuff and then

386
00:18:54,670 --> 00:18:52,160
you get to a point your life from your

387
00:18:56,370 --> 00:18:54,680
lies no this isn't this isn't coming

388
00:18:59,860 --> 00:18:56,380
back it's not going to happen so

389
00:19:02,140 --> 00:18:59,870
somewhere in that first ten years or so

390
00:19:03,610 --> 00:19:02,150
I went through a process of a deliberate

391
00:19:05,890 --> 00:19:03,620
process of mourning the loss of my

392
00:19:10,540 --> 00:19:05,900
family because that in fact is what I

393
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:10,550
had experienced right and so I can point

394
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:13,850
to that and then I also point to just

395
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:18,530
the passage of time and you know I don't

396
00:19:25,090 --> 00:19:22,490
know if it's you you get it calloused or

397
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:25,100
whatever but somehow you can start to

398
00:19:31,390 --> 00:19:27,650
let go of those feelings and those that

399
00:19:35,230 --> 00:19:31,400
those needs those that desire to be

400
00:19:37,060 --> 00:19:35,240
connected so I I was convinced when he

401
00:19:38,530 --> 00:19:37,070
that when he passed there wasn't going

402
00:19:39,370 --> 00:19:38,540
to be any emotions it was simply going

403
00:19:41,710 --> 00:19:39,380
to be in a

404
00:19:46,210 --> 00:19:41,720
that came and went there was a little

405
00:19:50,890 --> 00:19:46,220
bit again I think it's you know when you

406
00:19:52,510 --> 00:19:50,900
stay he was your father I I struggle

407
00:19:55,180 --> 00:19:52,520
with that a little bit because i'm not

408
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:55,190
quite sure what that means I think that

409
00:20:00,730 --> 00:19:56,810
it means something to the person that

410
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:00,740
says it yeah but to say he was my father

411
00:20:09,790 --> 00:20:07,730
I mean so he was there when when certain

412
00:20:12,190 --> 00:20:09,800
things happen door he was there he was

413
00:20:14,590 --> 00:20:12,200
he was someone I I turned to for advice

414
00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:14,600
and for inspiration and all that kind of

415
00:20:18,370 --> 00:20:16,880
that's those are the kind of things that

416
00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:18,380
we mean when we say he was your father

417
00:20:25,350 --> 00:20:21,310
right and I didn't have any of that so

418
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:25,360
the emotion was more about what

419
00:20:29,170 --> 00:20:27,890
recognizing intellectually that there's

420
00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:29,180
something that I could have had that I

421
00:20:36,670 --> 00:20:35,360
didn't and morning that but other than

422
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:36,680
that there really hasn't been that much

423
00:20:41,290 --> 00:20:39,410
and what was the public response I mean

424
00:20:43,060 --> 00:20:41,300
you must have live in Europe prominent

425
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:43,070
public the public speaker you're right

426
00:20:48,220 --> 00:20:46,010
you're in cfi Canada but what was the

427
00:20:52,150 --> 00:20:48,230
how would did the public respond to you

428
00:20:55,270 --> 00:20:52,160
and not directly to you well directly to

429
00:20:59,590 --> 00:20:55,280
me the the overwhelming majority of it

430
00:21:03,880 --> 00:20:59,600
was support and kindness and well wishes

431
00:21:05,770 --> 00:21:03,890
and that I think there were some places

432
00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:05,780
that I went that were you know I I had

433
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:08,240
to go searching for it where there was

434
00:21:15,700 --> 00:21:10,970
as I would expect a lot of bitterness

435
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:15,710
and a lot of anger and recrimination

436
00:21:20,890 --> 00:21:17,930
towards my father and and I understand

437
00:21:22,690 --> 00:21:20,900
that you know I don't you know people

438
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:22,700
talking about spitting on its grave and

439
00:21:27,970 --> 00:21:24,290
that kind of stuff I understand the

440
00:21:29,950 --> 00:21:27,980
anger I just I can't I can't condone it

441
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:29,960
because I don't think it's best for the

442
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:32,090
people who are experiencing it to be

443
00:21:38,290 --> 00:21:34,730
honest with you so but by and large it

444
00:21:39,730 --> 00:21:38,300
was very positive for me I didn't there

445
00:21:43,150 --> 00:21:39,740
wasn't there wasn't anything that was

446
00:21:44,590 --> 00:21:43,160
shocking that I came across as far as

447
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:44,600
what people had to say about it and

448
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:46,250
what's going to happen to us but public

449
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:47,490
baptist church

450
00:21:54,410 --> 00:21:51,330
no no every bean in touch with him look

451
00:21:57,410 --> 00:21:54,420
like none of them that are there I tried

452
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:57,420
to when I found out he was it was sick

453
00:22:04,850 --> 00:22:00,720
and and that didn't work out but they

454
00:22:09,770 --> 00:22:04,860
are their public images that you know

455
00:22:12,350 --> 00:22:09,780
this is we don't worship the dead this

456
00:22:13,730 --> 00:22:12,360
has happened and we move on there's some

457
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:13,740
evidence that he was kicked out of the

458
00:22:18,590 --> 00:22:16,490
church so they may have already

459
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:18,600
emotionally disconnected from him long

460
00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:21,570
before he passed so would one of your

461
00:22:25,820 --> 00:22:24,510
brothers take oh oh well I'm not sure

462
00:22:29,980 --> 00:22:25,830
who's going to take over there's a

463
00:22:32,450 --> 00:22:29,990
there's a group of eight men who are a

464
00:22:35,870 --> 00:22:32,460
Board of Elders it was just recently

465
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:35,880
formed in the last year or two and they

466
00:22:42,020 --> 00:22:40,410
apparently are heading things up it

467
00:22:45,049 --> 00:22:42,030
could could end up being Steve drain

468
00:22:49,700 --> 00:22:45,059
who's the one of the more public figures

469
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:49,710
in the and the and the picket campaign I

470
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:53,690
know that they have have muzzled surely

471
00:22:58,880 --> 00:22:56,010
she would never have been able to be a

472
00:23:02,270 --> 00:22:58,890
leader anyway but they've taken it a

473
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:02,280
step further and actually silencer and

474
00:23:10,490 --> 00:23:05,090
Shirley's my sister who has has been the

475
00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:10,500
the public persona of the Westboro

476
00:23:15,650 --> 00:23:14,130
campaign for years I mean other than

477
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:15,660
Fred Phelps everybody talked about

478
00:23:21,470 --> 00:23:18,690
Shirley phelps-roper and and because in

479
00:23:26,060 --> 00:23:21,480
fact she was that next generation of the

480
00:23:30,140 --> 00:23:26,070
angry vitriolic you know face screwed up

481
00:23:31,790 --> 00:23:30,150
in anger at the world and a lot of folks

482
00:23:33,950 --> 00:23:31,800
thought she would be the next leader

483
00:23:36,010 --> 00:23:33,960
right and and I was and I would tell him

484
00:23:38,690 --> 00:23:36,020
no she can't because she's one long yeah

485
00:23:43,220 --> 00:23:38,700
so

486
00:23:47,180 --> 00:23:43,230
in the last couple years that they

487
00:23:50,050 --> 00:23:47,190
deliberately took action to silence her

488
00:23:55,490 --> 00:23:50,060
to put her in her place if you will and

489
00:23:58,610 --> 00:23:55,500
so now it's it's Steve drain or my

490
00:24:02,960 --> 00:23:58,620
brother Tim seemed to be the two that

491
00:24:06,020 --> 00:24:02,970
are most likely to head the church okay

492
00:24:09,980 --> 00:24:06,030
now let's move on a little bit all right

493
00:24:11,810 --> 00:24:09,990
because you have left that church more

494
00:24:13,670 --> 00:24:11,820
than a few weeks ago yeah and you have

495
00:24:16,820 --> 00:24:13,680
done if you this thing if you think this

496
00:24:18,530 --> 00:24:16,830
should do one or two known i do i'm not

497
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:18,540
proud of but yeah let's talk about the

498
00:24:24,620 --> 00:24:21,120
things that you are proud so let's let's

499
00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:24,630
cut right to the present day you are you

500
00:24:31,220 --> 00:24:27,480
you have a role in see if I Canada what

501
00:24:33,470 --> 00:24:31,230
is that see if I Canada started like six

502
00:24:36,740 --> 00:24:33,480
years ago and we have I think I want to

503
00:24:38,660 --> 00:24:36,750
say 10 branches now and i run the

504
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:38,670
calgary branch i'm the executive

505
00:24:45,830 --> 00:24:41,250
director of cfi calgary canada canada

506
00:24:52,930 --> 00:24:45,840
calgary and we have speakers you know

507
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:52,940
and we do events for their community and

508
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:55,410
we've we've made quite a presence for

509
00:24:59,780 --> 00:24:56,970
ourselves there in the last four years

510
00:25:01,730 --> 00:24:59,790
since i started doing that and I also

511
00:25:03,290 --> 00:25:01,740
serve on the board of directors for a

512
00:25:07,370 --> 00:25:03,300
group called recovering from religion

513
00:25:09,260 --> 00:25:07,380
which is what it sounds like it's it's

514
00:25:11,900 --> 00:25:09,270
like you know people get together much

515
00:25:14,780 --> 00:25:11,910
like the AAA format you'll meet at

516
00:25:18,020 --> 00:25:14,790
someone's home or at some location and

517
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:18,030
and they just they use each other to

518
00:25:23,630 --> 00:25:21,090
help process and deal with their journey

519
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:23,640
away from some destructive religious

520
00:25:30,260 --> 00:25:25,650
experience that they've they've been in

521
00:25:33,210 --> 00:25:30,270
and and then I go around and speak all

522
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:33,220
over North America and and

523
00:25:41,549 --> 00:25:38,530
now I can say in Europe so yeah good

524
00:25:42,899 --> 00:25:41,559
stuff and you also you're also

525
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:42,909
campaigned on issues that are not

526
00:25:48,270 --> 00:25:45,520
directly related to skepticism but are

527
00:25:51,570 --> 00:25:48,280
some somewhat related to your history

528
00:25:56,310 --> 00:25:51,580
yeah well yeah I go to I speak a lot it

529
00:26:01,320 --> 00:25:56,320
at LGBT events the support LGBT groups I

530
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:01,330
speak out I write about it and yeah I

531
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:03,850
advocate for LGBT rights in North

532
00:26:07,620 --> 00:26:05,890
America of course Canada it's legal

533
00:26:09,930 --> 00:26:07,630
there to get married button you know

534
00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:09,940
just below us the u.s. is still fighting

535
00:26:18,270 --> 00:26:12,880
that battle so a lot of opportunity in

536
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:18,280
that area and since you are active in

537
00:26:22,470 --> 00:26:21,490
the promotion of LGBT rights i'm just

538
00:26:24,450 --> 00:26:22,480
wondering whether you've ever

539
00:26:29,299 --> 00:26:24,460
encountered a non-religious argument

540
00:26:34,350 --> 00:26:29,309
against LGBT rights i can say i have not

541
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:34,360
in fact there was a proposition 8 trial

542
00:26:38,730 --> 00:26:37,330
in California when maybe this is for an

543
00:26:41,250 --> 00:26:38,740
Australian audience the professional

544
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:41,260
profits proposition 8 was a was a ballot

545
00:26:47,669 --> 00:26:45,010
initiative in California to make gay

546
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:47,679
marriage basically make it impossible

547
00:26:52,380 --> 00:26:50,110
make it a constitutional amendment that

548
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:52,390
only a man woman can get married but

549
00:26:56,580 --> 00:26:53,650
that's to the constitution of the state

550
00:26:58,169 --> 00:26:56,590
not yesterday night radius yeah and it's

551
00:26:59,460 --> 00:26:58,179
probably also important to note for

552
00:27:03,630 --> 00:26:59,470
those who don't know that in the United

553
00:27:05,180 --> 00:27:03,640
States citizens can actually put on the

554
00:27:08,399 --> 00:27:05,190
ballot in the state elections

555
00:27:10,620 --> 00:27:08,409
propositions that will then will they

556
00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:10,630
should then become law it will carry the

557
00:27:14,490 --> 00:27:12,640
weight of law typically a lot of those

558
00:27:16,740 --> 00:27:14,500
didn't have to be vetted by some legal

559
00:27:19,169 --> 00:27:16,750
challenge because oftentimes a way it's

560
00:27:22,770 --> 00:27:19,179
written language of that proposition is

561
00:27:25,770 --> 00:27:22,780
is not going to withstand you know some

562
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:25,780
legal challenge so but nevertheless it's

563
00:27:29,909 --> 00:27:28,210
an important tool in the election

564
00:27:31,049 --> 00:27:29,919
process and the states so this

565
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:31,059
proposition would put on the ballot

566
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:33,250
ended up being funded in large part by

567
00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:36,640
the Mormon Church and it passed narrowly

568
00:27:43,410 --> 00:27:39,910
so then it went

569
00:27:47,490 --> 00:27:43,420
it became a legal battle and the trial

570
00:27:50,820 --> 00:27:47,500
lawyer or the trial judge in that trial

571
00:27:54,780 --> 00:27:50,830
basically got to hear all of the the

572
00:27:56,910 --> 00:27:54,790
popular arguments against gay marriage

573
00:27:59,760 --> 00:27:56,920
as part of the evidence that was

574
00:28:05,610 --> 00:27:59,770
presented at the trial and and in his

575
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:05,620
written decision where he overturned

576
00:28:11,250 --> 00:28:08,530
proposition 8 he said that he basically

577
00:28:14,370 --> 00:28:11,260
defeated each one of those arguments for

578
00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:14,380
lack of evidence arguments such as it's

579
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:19,440
not good for the children that that

580
00:28:31,290 --> 00:28:24,330
marriage is primarily for reproduction

581
00:28:33,210 --> 00:28:31,300
that homosexuality is a choice all these

582
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:33,220
arguments that are out there that were

583
00:28:37,140 --> 00:28:35,050
supposed to be the justifications

584
00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:37,150
nevermind what the Bible says they were

585
00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:40,480
soundly defeated and he his what he

586
00:28:49,650 --> 00:28:45,870
wrote in his his decision is like a

587
00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:49,660
study in how to respond to all the

588
00:28:54,630 --> 00:28:51,910
popular arguments against gay marriage

589
00:28:56,820 --> 00:28:54,640
so there's nothing out there and and he

590
00:28:59,280 --> 00:28:56,830
concluded rightfully so that really what

591
00:29:00,750 --> 00:28:59,290
you're left with in is just a lot of

592
00:29:02,490 --> 00:29:00,760
people who just don't feel good about it

593
00:29:05,970 --> 00:29:02,500
because of some religious belief that

594
00:29:10,410 --> 00:29:05,980
they old and that's not how we make long

595
00:29:12,660 --> 00:29:10,420
and in America so now you can get

596
00:29:15,450 --> 00:29:12,670
married in California is this the kind

597
00:29:17,820 --> 00:29:15,460
of thing that could be challenged by go

598
00:29:19,590 --> 00:29:17,830
to the Supreme Court oh it isn't there I

599
00:29:22,350 --> 00:29:19,600
think they did try and ultimately the

600
00:29:23,970 --> 00:29:22,360
Supreme Court rejected hearing it did go

601
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:23,980
to the appellate level and was was

602
00:29:31,530 --> 00:29:28,480
upheld and so

603
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:31,540
and then they tried to get it before the

604
00:29:37,260 --> 00:29:34,570
Supreme Court and they rejected so it's

605
00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:37,270
settled it is settled yeah good okay

606
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:41,710
there kid okay so night thank you very

607
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:43,510
much for giving me some of your time it

608
00:29:46,289 --> 00:29:44,530
was a pleasure meeting you and speak

609
00:30:01,799 --> 00:29:46,299
yeah it's my pleasure to her thank you

610
00:30:03,810 --> 00:30:01,809
much astronomy cast it takes a fact

611
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:03,820
space journey through the cosmos as it

612
00:30:08,549 --> 00:30:05,890
offers listeners weekly discussions on

613
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:08,559
astronomical topics ranging from planets

614
00:30:13,919 --> 00:30:11,530
to cosmology hosted by Fraser Cain of

615
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:13,929
Universe Today and myself dr. Pamela gay

616
00:30:17,460 --> 00:30:14,799
of southern illinois university

617
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:17,470
edwardsville this show brings the

618
00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:19,330
questions of an avid astronomy lover

619
00:30:23,850 --> 00:30:21,760
directly to an astronomer together

620
00:30:25,380 --> 00:30:23,860
Fraser and I explore what is known and

621
00:30:28,140 --> 00:30:25,390
being discovered about the universe

622
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:28,150
around us join us each week as we take a

623
00:30:40,010 --> 00:30:30,250
fax space journey through the cosmos at

624
00:30:44,820 --> 00:30:42,630
welcome to a week in science from our

625
00:30:47,850 --> 00:30:44,830
aisles bringing you the science you need

626
00:30:50,460 --> 00:30:47,860
to know when winter comes I crank up the

627
00:30:52,860 --> 00:30:50,470
heat and wrap myself in warm clothes but

628
00:31:00,480 --> 00:30:52,870
men you don't seem to do the same so why

629
00:31:02,490 --> 00:31:00,490
is one theory is that women have a

630
00:31:04,230 --> 00:31:02,500
higher core body temperature than men

631
00:31:06,750 --> 00:31:04,240
this would create a bigger difference

632
00:31:09,060 --> 00:31:06,760
between our internal temperature and the

633
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:09,070
outside ambient temperature which makes

634
00:31:13,260 --> 00:31:11,410
us more sensitive to the cold but

635
00:31:15,300 --> 00:31:13,270
scientific evidence for this is a bit

636
00:31:17,910 --> 00:31:15,310
shaky with some studies finding a

637
00:31:19,530 --> 00:31:17,920
difference and others not overall it

638
00:31:21,540 --> 00:31:19,540
seems that women could have a slightly

639
00:31:23,250 --> 00:31:21,550
higher core temperature but we're only

640
00:31:25,380 --> 00:31:23,260
talking about point two degrees

641
00:31:27,090 --> 00:31:25,390
difference when you take into account

642
00:31:30,150 --> 00:31:27,100
other factors that change how people

643
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:30,160
feel the cold like age Fitness hunger

644
00:31:36,930 --> 00:31:32,770
and tiredness this difference is really

645
00:31:38,970 --> 00:31:36,940
insignificant so if core body

646
00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:38,980
temperature isn't a factor then what's

647
00:31:43,020 --> 00:31:41,200
happening well it turns out that women

648
00:31:45,810 --> 00:31:43,030
have a lower skin temperature than men

649
00:31:47,940 --> 00:31:45,820
meaning that we feel the cold more women

650
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:47,950
tend to have a higher skin surface area

651
00:31:53,010 --> 00:31:50,170
to volume ratio because we're generally

652
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:53,020
smaller overall to stop too much heat

653
00:31:57,540 --> 00:31:54,970
loss through this surface area we have a

654
00:31:59,850 --> 00:31:57,550
lower flow of blood to the skin leading

655
00:32:01,530 --> 00:31:59,860
to a lower skin temperature this means

656
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:01,540
that it takes a much smaller drop in

657
00:32:06,210 --> 00:32:03,610
temperature for our skin sensors to

658
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:06,220
detect that we're feeling cold women's

659
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:08,410
bodies also seem to be better at moving

660
00:32:13,290 --> 00:32:10,810
warm blood away from our extremities to

661
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:13,300
protect internal organs that's why our

662
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:15,610
hands and feet can be three degrees

663
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:18,130
cooler than men's and it seems

664
00:32:23,130 --> 00:32:20,650
counterintuitive but our extra layers of

665
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:23,140
fat actually insulate our skin from our

666
00:32:27,870 --> 00:32:25,210
warm core creating the sensation of

667
00:32:30,570 --> 00:32:27,880
coldness that's also why larger people

668
00:32:34,100 --> 00:32:30,580
tend to feel the cold more and now for

669
00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:34,110
fast facts about our body temperatures

670
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:36,790
women need to get much hotter than men

671
00:32:41,130 --> 00:32:39,250
before they start to sweat and even then

672
00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:41,140
they sweat much less which is probably

673
00:32:46,140 --> 00:32:44,110
linked to testosterone levels your body

674
00:32:48,330 --> 00:32:46,150
temperature cycles up and down by a

675
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:48,340
degree or so throughout the day being

676
00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:50,290
lowest a couple of hours before you wake

677
00:32:55,650 --> 00:32:52,870
up and highest in the late afternoon our

678
00:32:58,560 --> 00:32:55,660
definition of a normal temperature came

679
00:33:01,160 --> 00:32:58,570
in 1851 from German physician Carl

680
00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:01,170
bundle ich who took armpit readings from

681
00:33:06,690 --> 00:33:04,390
25,000 patients and pregnancy and

682
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:06,700
hormonal contraceptives can increase a

683
00:33:13,350 --> 00:33:08,530
woman's core temperature by one degree

684
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:13,360
Celsius that's it for this week in

685
00:33:17,250 --> 00:33:15,010
science if you want to find out more

686
00:33:21,510 --> 00:33:17,260
about why women are cool and men are hot

687
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:21,520
go to the RAF website RI aus org dot AE

688
00:33:25,830 --> 00:33:23,770
plus don't forget to follow us on

689
00:33:28,169 --> 00:33:25,840
twitter at our oils and like us on

690
00:33:39,060 --> 00:33:28,179
Facebook I'm cure and groom and we'll

691
00:33:52,930 --> 00:33:51,070
on Maynard calm don't you hey you coming

692
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:52,940
to you live from the exciting bleep

693
00:33:57,430 --> 00:33:55,010
point road frou-frou cafe it's mr. Tim

694
00:33:59,290 --> 00:33:57,440
Ferguson good morning good evening good

695
00:34:01,360 --> 00:33:59,300
afternoon and all the times in between

696
00:34:02,710 --> 00:34:01,370
and my name is Mina we've got it all

697
00:34:04,660 --> 00:34:02,720
here we've got dogs that we've got

698
00:34:07,180 --> 00:34:04,670
screaming babies we've got pouting

699
00:34:09,490 --> 00:34:07,190
waiters I've heard that ghosts can only

700
00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:09,500
travel in straight lines and they can't

701
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:12,320
jump I know in Feng Shui you did usually

702
00:34:16,510 --> 00:34:14,090
a mirror or something and so the evil

703
00:34:18,010 --> 00:34:16,520
can't turn and get into your house they

704
00:34:19,930 --> 00:34:18,020
put something there we'll have you heard

705
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:19,940
about ghosts and their physical ability

706
00:34:25,660 --> 00:34:22,370
I do know that they cannot jump they

707
00:34:27,670 --> 00:34:25,670
won't yup they refuse to jump actually

708
00:34:30,340 --> 00:34:27,680
recalcitrant that's their problem after

709
00:34:32,290 --> 00:34:30,350
a lifetime of jumping you don't want to

710
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:32,300
spend the afterworld being asked

711
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:34,490
repeatedly come on I would jump over

712
00:34:39,100 --> 00:34:37,010
that if you can walk through walls why

713
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:39,110
would you want to jump there seem to be

714
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:41,930
a set of rules that a bit great gray

715
00:34:48,070 --> 00:34:45,530
there one is ghost gazans do they happen

716
00:34:50,290 --> 00:34:48,080
I mean I don't want to be fighting

717
00:34:52,630 --> 00:34:50,300
myself in the afterworld where there is

718
00:34:56,170 --> 00:34:52,640
no orgasm there is no point in being

719
00:34:58,210 --> 00:34:56,180
alive without orgasms and daytime TV I

720
00:35:19,079 --> 00:34:58,220
want both of those in the afterworld on

721
00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:23,199
glorious bloom out katoomba i mean--can

722
00:35:28,059 --> 00:35:25,910
to rhyme with joe alabaster hello John

723
00:35:31,209 --> 00:35:28,069
hello Richard how are you I want some

724
00:35:34,569 --> 00:35:31,219
more evidence please haha and Peter bout

725
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:34,579
at oh oh oh now I've come up here and

726
00:35:38,529 --> 00:35:36,650
you both been helping me today filming

727
00:35:40,749 --> 00:35:38,539
the vaccination chronicles bits of it

728
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:40,759
and i'm pleased to say that it's almost

729
00:35:45,339 --> 00:35:43,130
all the filming's almost done now we had

730
00:35:47,019 --> 00:35:45,349
an interesting morning joe we filmed

731
00:35:48,729 --> 00:35:47,029
about half of it than we had to film it

732
00:35:51,249 --> 00:35:48,739
all again but you were very patient with

733
00:35:52,959 --> 00:35:51,259
me fluffing my lines or am I said it

734
00:35:55,359 --> 00:35:52,969
made me feel a little bit better about

735
00:35:56,890 --> 00:35:55,369
me fluffing my lines for my statement on

736
00:36:00,160 --> 00:35:56,900
the skeptics home frankly it was

737
00:36:02,319 --> 00:36:00,170
fantastic and then I it's a very serious

738
00:36:06,219 --> 00:36:02,329
topic I mean I was doing all these lines

739
00:36:08,259 --> 00:36:06,229
about childhood diseases and people you

740
00:36:10,779 --> 00:36:08,269
know have it it was very serious stuff

741
00:36:12,099 --> 00:36:10,789
and then looking at I'd fluff a line

742
00:36:13,959 --> 00:36:12,109
then you'd look at me and then you'd

743
00:36:15,849 --> 00:36:13,969
start to smirk behind the camera and I'd

744
00:36:18,249 --> 00:36:15,859
lose the plot but this is all part of

745
00:36:21,309 --> 00:36:18,259
filming I think it was actually a lot of

746
00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:21,319
fun I did enjoy it I'm happen please it

747
00:36:24,189 --> 00:36:22,910
was the course there was the job with

748
00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:24,199
the camera person and then microphone

749
00:36:28,569 --> 00:36:25,910
person to try and make the talent laughs

750
00:36:29,650 --> 00:36:28,579
while I was nothing serious I mean I

751
00:36:31,059 --> 00:36:29,660
don't know how many times I've something

752
00:36:32,319 --> 00:36:31,069
doing crazy antics while I'm trying to

753
00:36:35,319 --> 00:36:32,329
keep a straight face while talking to

754
00:36:37,420 --> 00:36:35,329
camera and we've that was in a lot of

755
00:36:39,579 --> 00:36:37,430
Parker than we came here to the what is

756
00:36:41,859 --> 00:36:39,589
it the Carrington Harrington a famous

757
00:36:45,729 --> 00:36:41,869
old hotel here in the Kitumba we're

758
00:36:50,559 --> 00:36:45,739
sitting out here on the was the balcony

759
00:36:51,999 --> 00:36:50,569
the veranda the the veranda um another

760
00:36:53,620 --> 00:36:52,009
thing that occurred to me and I always

761
00:36:55,299 --> 00:36:53,630
forget this but always remember again

762
00:36:57,339 --> 00:36:55,309
when I'm filming is you start to do some

763
00:36:59,499 --> 00:36:57,349
something to camera and then a plane

764
00:37:01,569 --> 00:36:59,509
comes then the dog box and then the

765
00:37:03,670 --> 00:37:01,579
truck decides to go up the hill and then

766
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:03,680
and then another train comes along as

767
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:06,890
I'm even now we've just finished filming

768
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:09,440
a segment with Peter and about two

769
00:37:15,350 --> 00:37:11,930
minutes later

770
00:37:19,550 --> 00:37:15,360
this music appears from nowhere buskers

771
00:37:23,180 --> 00:37:19,560
with drums down on the street it's all

772
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:23,190
part of filming and you were relating a

773
00:37:25,850 --> 00:37:24,690
story Peter which you can tell our

774
00:37:28,850 --> 00:37:25,860
listeners now then give them a sneak

775
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:28,860
preview about we were talking about a

776
00:37:33,140 --> 00:37:31,770
time when polio is a real menacing our

777
00:37:35,870 --> 00:37:33,150
society and you were telling us a story

778
00:37:37,820 --> 00:37:35,880
about kids hurting their legs yeah well

779
00:37:40,610 --> 00:37:37,830
I'm some old enough remember when Polly

780
00:37:43,250 --> 00:37:40,620
I was a dreadful scare my cousin Phillip

781
00:37:45,050 --> 00:37:43,260
its top of me is younger than me he fell

782
00:37:47,330 --> 00:37:45,060
over one day and heard his leg his

783
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:47,340
parents panicked because first thought

784
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:49,530
anybody's mind palio took the doctor he

785
00:37:53,390 --> 00:37:51,930
was ok two days later his very best

786
00:37:55,850 --> 00:37:53,400
friend Frank he lived two streets away

787
00:37:57,980 --> 00:37:55,860
same experience fell over hurt his leg

788
00:38:00,530 --> 00:37:57,990
his parents took him to the doctor he

789
00:38:02,270 --> 00:38:00,540
had polio Frank died in 2012 he spent

790
00:38:05,090 --> 00:38:02,280
his life in a wheelchair people forget

791
00:38:06,830 --> 00:38:05,100
how bad those diseases why were because

792
00:38:09,020 --> 00:38:06,840
they haven't seen them I've seen people

793
00:38:10,940 --> 00:38:09,030
in iron lungs I've seen children in my

794
00:38:12,650 --> 00:38:10,950
primary school class will be had to

795
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:12,660
modify a games because their calipers on

796
00:38:17,810 --> 00:38:14,850
their legs I don't want to ever see this

797
00:38:19,730 --> 00:38:17,820
stuff come back yeah and now that we

798
00:38:21,110 --> 00:38:19,740
have we can be thankful now that they

799
00:38:22,370 --> 00:38:21,120
found the answer to some of these things

800
00:38:25,310 --> 00:38:22,380
they've got her these dreadful diseases

801
00:38:27,230 --> 00:38:25,320
that they no longer a problem polio in

802
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:27,240
fact because it's only carried by humans

803
00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:28,770
can be rude can be wiped out of the way

804
00:38:33,380 --> 00:38:31,200
the smallpox was and hopefully will do

805
00:38:35,870 --> 00:38:33,390
it but suppose we walked out 2003 yes

806
00:38:37,610 --> 00:38:35,880
Edinburgh yes but it keeps coming back

807
00:38:39,050 --> 00:38:37,620
and at the moment it's really only bad

808
00:38:40,190 --> 00:38:39,060
in two countries but the trouble is

809
00:38:42,110 --> 00:38:40,200
they're two countries which have

810
00:38:44,570 --> 00:38:42,120
refugees coming out of them you know

811
00:38:46,220 --> 00:38:44,580
other parts of the world so hopefully

812
00:38:49,220 --> 00:38:46,230
it'll will never see it come back the

813
00:38:50,330 --> 00:38:49,230
way it ever did but we're only we can

814
00:38:53,060 --> 00:38:50,340
only be a year away if we stop

815
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:53,070
vaccinating now and we still get polio

816
00:38:57,740 --> 00:38:55,410
vaccination in Australia if we were to

817
00:38:59,180 --> 00:38:57,750
stop up now we could have epidemics of

818
00:39:00,470 --> 00:38:59,190
polio back in Australia in the other

819
00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:00,480
states within a year yeah yeah I

820
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:02,880
wouldn't at all be surprised if that was

821
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:05,490
that could happen and incidentally it's

822
00:39:08,330 --> 00:39:07,170
a disease with lasting consequences so

823
00:39:10,550 --> 00:39:08,340
it's not something if you get and you

824
00:39:12,770 --> 00:39:10,560
ought to get over it or you Disick will

825
00:39:14,330 --> 00:39:12,780
you get it it's something which can

826
00:39:15,950 --> 00:39:14,340
protect you for life because your power

827
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:15,960
paralysis in your lungs which is why

828
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:17,650
they are lungs within you and I

829
00:39:22,370 --> 00:39:20,250
ago you and I were in Melbourne for a

830
00:39:24,870 --> 00:39:22,380
skeptical event at the melbourne museum

831
00:39:27,029 --> 00:39:24,880
site week Boris this week and we were

832
00:39:29,130 --> 00:39:27,039
both there on the skeptic the Victorian

833
00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:29,140
skeptics had to stand I remember and at

834
00:39:32,519 --> 00:39:30,609
some stage during the proceedings you

835
00:39:35,250 --> 00:39:32,529
and I ducked away and had a look at the

836
00:39:37,549 --> 00:39:35,260
museum and we found in a museum and iron

837
00:39:39,569 --> 00:39:37,559
lung they actually had an exhibition of

838
00:39:42,569 --> 00:39:39,579
specific about polio they had an iron

839
00:39:44,190 --> 00:39:42,579
lung which had been donated by somebody

840
00:39:46,890 --> 00:39:44,200
who and the thing had been painted up in

841
00:39:48,329 --> 00:39:46,900
red and black because the person who was

842
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:48,339
in it was a follower of the Essendon

843
00:39:51,690 --> 00:39:50,170
Football team and his parents had

844
00:39:53,130 --> 00:39:51,700
painted up in his football team colors

845
00:39:54,900 --> 00:39:53,140
and the football team had contributed to

846
00:39:56,339 --> 00:39:54,910
the cost of running it if I had laid

847
00:39:58,380 --> 00:39:56,349
calipers and all sorts of things in this

848
00:40:00,990 --> 00:39:58,390
exhibition know so it was such a

849
00:40:03,839 --> 00:40:01,000
poignant moment to think that we had to

850
00:40:07,319 --> 00:40:03,849
go to a museum to see an iron lung and

851
00:40:10,349 --> 00:40:07,329
these things wants just part of everyday

852
00:40:12,779 --> 00:40:10,359
life almost or the society knew about

853
00:40:14,970 --> 00:40:12,789
them being but I had them I didn't learn

854
00:40:16,289 --> 00:40:14,980
to swim when I was a child and the whole

855
00:40:18,359 --> 00:40:16,299
cohort of children didn't learn to swim

856
00:40:19,890 --> 00:40:18,369
because swimming pools were seen as a

857
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:19,900
place where Polly I word spread that

858
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:21,760
parent wouldn't take their children to

859
00:40:26,519 --> 00:40:24,010
public swimming pools and so we had

860
00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:26,529
throughout several years if you want to

861
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:27,609
learn to swim you had to go to a private

862
00:40:31,529 --> 00:40:30,130
school somewhere or I've made League of

863
00:40:33,059 --> 00:40:31,539
the butcher that you could not go for

864
00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:33,069
the public swimming pool he could if

865
00:40:36,420 --> 00:40:34,720
nobody did because of this fear that's

866
00:40:38,430 --> 00:40:36,430
that's that's astonishing things you

867
00:40:40,410 --> 00:40:38,440
don't even think about now you've got a

868
00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:40,420
couple of young kids who I just met

869
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:43,359
today and they're the Lightwood Oscars

870
00:40:48,750 --> 00:40:46,210
such a chatterbox he's lovely Oscar is

871
00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:48,760
four and Daphne is three years old just

872
00:40:55,079 --> 00:40:51,910
yes I did absolutely delightful kids but

873
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:55,089
as a as a mum of some young kids

874
00:40:58,829 --> 00:40:56,890
yourself and we know when you hear these

875
00:41:01,680 --> 00:40:58,839
stories and I know that when I was doing

876
00:41:03,990 --> 00:41:01,690
my lines to camera yeah and when you

877
00:41:06,569 --> 00:41:04,000
weren't smirking which we did I have to

878
00:41:07,380 --> 00:41:06,579
admit we got the guilt because it's

879
00:41:09,180 --> 00:41:07,390
something that you do when you're

880
00:41:10,620 --> 00:41:09,190
filming but I could look at the look on

881
00:41:13,589 --> 00:41:10,630
your face when I was delivering some

882
00:41:15,690 --> 00:41:13,599
lines about there was an article I read

883
00:41:18,990 --> 00:41:15,700
about whooping cough yeah and a child

884
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:19,000
coughing and breaking your neck and I

885
00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:21,490
can see the look on your face it's

886
00:41:27,029 --> 00:41:24,160
difficult I mean before having children

887
00:41:28,329 --> 00:41:27,039
I was rather affected by these things

888
00:41:33,039 --> 00:41:28,339
anyway

889
00:41:36,249 --> 00:41:33,049
but yeah it's maybe a bit more personal

890
00:41:38,739 --> 00:41:36,259
now it's really hard um but your kids

891
00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:38,749
were born up here yes they were actually

892
00:41:42,609 --> 00:41:40,910
and that was one of my worries i'll

893
00:41:43,989 --> 00:41:42,619
admit having children in the blue

894
00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:43,999
mountains because i was quite aware of

895
00:41:48,459 --> 00:41:46,089
the low vaccination rates up here

896
00:41:49,930 --> 00:41:48,469
particularly when they were under six

897
00:41:51,819 --> 00:41:49,940
months and not fully immunized for

898
00:41:54,849 --> 00:41:51,829
whooping cough you were terrifying did

899
00:41:57,009 --> 00:41:54,859
you have anybody putting any sort of

900
00:41:58,660 --> 00:41:57,019
information your anti-vaccination you

901
00:42:03,519 --> 00:41:58,670
information your way being up here or

902
00:42:07,959 --> 00:42:03,529
was it well um no I I was already very

903
00:42:09,999 --> 00:42:07,969
much probe ax um have been throughout my

904
00:42:12,609 --> 00:42:10,009
life actually because when I was a child

905
00:42:14,019 --> 00:42:12,619
I knew a chap who had polio and wasn't

906
00:42:20,259 --> 00:42:14,029
an iron lung which is a bit of a rarity

907
00:42:24,069 --> 00:42:20,269
um but yeah no I i have come across anti

908
00:42:25,749 --> 00:42:24,079
vax people none of them have really

909
00:42:27,999 --> 00:42:25,759
tried to bring it up with me I don't

910
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:28,009
know if it's because they know that I am

911
00:42:35,109 --> 00:42:31,599
an advocate for vaccination of here um

912
00:42:38,109 --> 00:42:35,119
but I had a falling out with somebody in

913
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:38,119
my mother's group who was very much

914
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:42,130
insistent that Meryl stories views

915
00:42:46,390 --> 00:42:44,930
specifically meritorious views should be

916
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:46,400
heard and that there are two sides to

917
00:42:51,190 --> 00:42:48,650
the story and we had a little bit of

918
00:42:56,289 --> 00:42:51,200
awkwardness in her mother's group now

919
00:42:59,019 --> 00:42:56,299
after that um also my son is one of his

920
00:43:00,880 --> 00:42:59,029
best friends um is from a family that

921
00:43:03,219 --> 00:43:00,890
doesn't vaccinate and that's a very

922
00:43:05,950 --> 00:43:03,229
strange thing to negotiate socially

923
00:43:09,430 --> 00:43:05,960
really um I want him to have his

924
00:43:11,529 --> 00:43:09,440
friendships and such so we we just tend

925
00:43:14,049 --> 00:43:11,539
not to speak about it um the other

926
00:43:16,450 --> 00:43:14,059
family is aware of my position and why I

927
00:43:19,180 --> 00:43:16,460
hold it and I'm aware of theirs and why

928
00:43:20,979 --> 00:43:19,190
they hold it and you know it's your

929
00:43:23,979 --> 00:43:20,989
birth of this area up in the Blue

930
00:43:25,329 --> 00:43:23,989
Mountains Oh what is it about this area

931
00:43:27,849 --> 00:43:25,339
I mean it's it's got a reputation

932
00:43:29,349 --> 00:43:27,859
friendly being a little bit what's the

933
00:43:33,069 --> 00:43:29,359
word I'm looking for alternatively

934
00:43:35,319 --> 00:43:33,079
hippie-ish and why is that I have no I'm

935
00:43:38,420 --> 00:43:35,329
actually um again I've also all muck

936
00:43:40,260 --> 00:43:38,430
left you had been a real genuine hippie

937
00:43:42,870 --> 00:43:40,270
which is probably why I end up in the

938
00:43:45,180 --> 00:43:42,880
Blue Mountains I don't know it's

939
00:43:46,859 --> 00:43:45,190
obviously a lifestyle thing then we've

940
00:43:48,990 --> 00:43:46,869
got the weed of magic festival coming up

941
00:43:50,820 --> 00:43:49,000
shortly will our local witches will come

942
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:50,830
out into the street met cast spells on

943
00:43:56,700 --> 00:43:54,130
people and so forth but it's interesting

944
00:43:58,500 --> 00:43:56,710
that I haven't actually seen the over 80

945
00:44:01,020 --> 00:43:58,510
vaccination activity here hoping to be

946
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:01,030
here for five and a half years but this

947
00:44:05,820 --> 00:44:03,850
postcode were in near 2780 is the second

948
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:05,830
lowest rate of vaccinations at every

949
00:44:10,410 --> 00:44:07,930
party postcode in Australia what's the

950
00:44:12,510 --> 00:44:10,420
first you know now Lamar balanar i think

951
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:12,520
is no balanus yeah i know that on the

952
00:44:16,620 --> 00:44:15,130
north northern curve rivers and there's

953
00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:16,630
a root development that is in an area

954
00:44:19,770 --> 00:44:18,310
where there was an active highly

955
00:44:21,540 --> 00:44:19,780
accurate any vaccinations organisation

956
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:21,550
running I used to go to Sunday school

957
00:44:26,910 --> 00:44:25,570
camping downer Oh many years ago aha we

958
00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:26,920
won't talk about sunday school till

959
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:30,730
about Oh stone Devils I don't know

960
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:32,880
haven't seen it but certainly up here I

961
00:44:37,050 --> 00:44:34,930
might jog about being the gluten-free

962
00:44:40,050 --> 00:44:37,060
capital of the world its food fads

963
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:40,060
everywhere yeah there's some crystals

964
00:44:45,300 --> 00:44:43,330
and me are crispy everywhere yep so

965
00:44:47,099 --> 00:44:45,310
we've got chops with crystal sure we're

966
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:47,109
right near the main street just looking

967
00:44:50,940 --> 00:44:49,090
down from our viewer here on the vendor

968
00:44:52,830 --> 00:44:50,950
the Carrington I can see the main street

969
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:52,840
I'm sure that our crystal shops and all

970
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:54,010
sorts of things down there are many

971
00:44:58,190 --> 00:44:56,410
Chris in fact when Richard's talked

972
00:45:01,349 --> 00:44:58,200
before about the music that started up

973
00:45:03,450 --> 00:45:01,359
just it was a very first thing was one

974
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:03,460
of those Indian drums that people talk

975
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:05,530
about the ends of if you do any higher

976
00:45:10,050 --> 00:45:08,770
accretion of stuff so yes it is a it's

977
00:45:11,670 --> 00:45:10,060
an alternative lifestyle place which

978
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:11,680
also was the case with the Northern

979
00:45:15,540 --> 00:45:14,050
Rivers New South Wales it was a Troy

980
00:45:18,300 --> 00:45:15,550
change place but we'll retired and went

981
00:45:20,460 --> 00:45:18,310
up there I mean nimbin must was there

982
00:45:22,050 --> 00:45:20,470
meant nimbin probably now is nothing

983
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:22,060
like I was back in the olden days but

984
00:45:25,349 --> 00:45:23,770
now I think it was compulsory to smoke

985
00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:25,359
weed when he went on him but mother 3

986
00:45:28,980 --> 00:45:26,710
about of the town when I laugh when tlie

987
00:45:32,910 --> 00:45:28,990
I left quickly because obvious I

988
00:45:35,070 --> 00:45:32,920
wouldn't do anything a little that so I

989
00:45:37,470 --> 00:45:35,080
think that's part of it the area of has

990
00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:37,480
attracted people yeah because there is a

991
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:39,280
certain last part of the area and it's

992
00:45:43,410 --> 00:45:41,650
away from Sydney dick but you know so

993
00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:43,420
saying I came up here on the train this

994
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:45,310
morning from Sydney and it took me less

995
00:45:50,330 --> 00:45:47,130
than two hours knows yeah

996
00:45:51,740 --> 00:45:50,340
it's not a long trip adore really it's

997
00:45:53,390 --> 00:45:51,750
not a long trip for some lives in Sidon

998
00:45:56,870 --> 00:45:53,400
him so it's an awfully long trip you

999
00:45:58,280 --> 00:45:56,880
live in France or someone like that i

1000
00:45:59,810 --> 00:45:58,290
keep reading novels with people say they

1001
00:46:02,810 --> 00:45:59,820
have to travel first class to go from

1002
00:46:05,060 --> 00:46:02,820
from Geneva to burn because it's me out

1003
00:46:06,410 --> 00:46:05,070
a half and the triumphal where we do

1004
00:46:07,910 --> 00:46:06,420
that they go to work here I've been

1005
00:46:10,190 --> 00:46:07,920
trained was quite comfortable in purple

1006
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:10,200
seeds joke Oh excellent oh look almost

1007
00:46:15,350 --> 00:46:12,770
as purple is your hair today I must say

1008
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:15,360
that's our new renovated trains the ones

1009
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:17,850
with the purple sleeps yes we hope we we

1010
00:46:21,110 --> 00:46:18,930
actually tweet about that when we get

1011
00:46:23,270 --> 00:46:21,120
purple suits yeah I saw that Jojo what

1012
00:46:26,420 --> 00:46:23,280
you I'd watch your tweed handle Joe it's

1013
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:26,430
at Joe alabaster one word and red bay

1014
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:29,130
it's at Red bank's com also one word

1015
00:46:33,230 --> 00:46:31,770
when your website of course is ratbags

1016
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:33,240
calm but that's got a dot in it not the

1017
00:46:39,980 --> 00:46:37,050
word do tooi and you know you've been

1018
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:39,990
you've been doing ratbags con for years

1019
00:46:46,460 --> 00:46:42,930
even before I met you 15 years I started

1020
00:46:47,930 --> 00:46:46,470
started in March 1999 and the original

1021
00:46:50,060 --> 00:46:47,940
idea was to simply list the thousand

1022
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:50,070
places I didn't like that's right and so

1023
00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:52,110
so for the idea what and actually do

1024
00:46:55,820 --> 00:46:54,000
like ticked over on the thirty-first

1025
00:46:59,240 --> 00:46:55,830
December night Oh 99 when the world was

1026
00:47:03,650 --> 00:46:59,250
about to end and I added the thousandth

1027
00:47:05,180 --> 00:47:03,660
person there some significant things the

1028
00:47:10,010 --> 00:47:05,190
Estonian vaccination network was number

1029
00:47:11,870 --> 00:47:10,020
one pat robertson's crazy christian

1030
00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:11,880
coalition while remark by coincidence

1031
00:47:19,580 --> 00:47:17,250
came in at number 666 the style of place

1032
00:47:21,350 --> 00:47:19,590
is this list of a website yeah yeah and

1033
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:21,360
then I started adding comments to it and

1034
00:47:24,140 --> 00:47:22,890
then I started become a magazine yes

1035
00:47:25,910 --> 00:47:24,150
then they come and actually pain in the

1036
00:47:27,110 --> 00:47:25,920
neck like all these things because

1037
00:47:29,390 --> 00:47:27,120
you've got to keep doing it all the time

1038
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:29,400
you do it's like the skeptics don't

1039
00:47:33,590 --> 00:47:31,650
really ever do it every week and looking

1040
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:33,600
on the stem there on the steps I can see

1041
00:47:40,630 --> 00:47:36,770
a couple little kids Oh they've gone

1042
00:47:43,130 --> 00:47:40,640
it's all right you can come up now Oscar

1043
00:47:45,110 --> 00:47:43,140
that all here they come I should point

1044
00:47:47,390 --> 00:47:45,120
out the only joke about it being a pain

1045
00:47:48,860 --> 00:47:47,400
because I received hate mail but also

1046
00:47:50,930 --> 00:47:48,870
have a lot of complementary stuff yeah

1047
00:47:51,770 --> 00:47:50,940
and if I wasn't getting that of Orden

1048
00:47:53,930 --> 00:47:51,780
getting the people looking at it I

1049
00:47:55,370 --> 00:47:53,940
wouldn't bother doing it so but I do get

1050
00:47:57,110 --> 00:47:55,380
the response so i get thousand several

1051
00:47:59,150 --> 00:47:57,120
thousand things i take a look at it it's

1052
00:48:00,230 --> 00:47:59,160
worth doing what i'd like to do is

1053
00:48:02,510 --> 00:48:00,240
figure out how can make a little

1054
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:02,520
well that's that's that's a question we

1055
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:04,530
all ask now these two kids have come

1056
00:48:10,790 --> 00:48:06,810
back up come up come on it's your hello

1057
00:48:14,180 --> 00:48:10,800
what's that what's that you're going to

1058
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:14,190
say hello death I'm say hello now you

1059
00:48:19,510 --> 00:48:16,770
say he'll see that big blue one you say

1060
00:48:22,310 --> 00:48:19,520
hello to that hello the microphone is

1061
00:48:23,930 --> 00:48:22,320
she's listening she put her ear up and

1062
00:48:28,910 --> 00:48:23,940
she was Oscar come over and you want to

1063
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:28,920
say hello Oscar this is like never work

1064
00:48:33,470 --> 00:48:30,810
with children and animals because we're

1065
00:48:35,780 --> 00:48:33,480
the chatterbox Oscar is now at least now

1066
00:48:40,610 --> 00:48:35,790
gosh do you want to say hello Oscar

1067
00:48:42,590 --> 00:48:40,620
gonna say hello say hello hello well

1068
00:48:47,450 --> 00:48:42,600
yeah we got something do you wanna say

1069
00:48:49,130 --> 00:48:47,460
hello say hello hey you don't have to

1070
00:48:55,550 --> 00:48:49,140
touch it just say in your big voice

1071
00:48:57,620 --> 00:48:55,560
hello no downside isn't that always the

1072
00:48:59,980 --> 00:48:57,630
way but she's absolutely adorable what

1073
00:49:03,380 --> 00:48:59,990
lovely big blue eyes she's looking at me

1074
00:49:05,050 --> 00:49:03,390
and of course and you've got blue eyes

1075
00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:05,060
too and of course she's fully vaccinated

1076
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:08,730
they are both fully vaccinated actually

1077
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:12,210
had I'm Oscars chicken pox was done

1078
00:49:15,860 --> 00:49:13,530
slightly early because there was an

1079
00:49:18,140 --> 00:49:15,870
outbreak in the area so I had him done

1080
00:49:21,460 --> 00:49:18,150
six months before schedule which is

1081
00:49:23,870 --> 00:49:21,470
acceptable by the jps standard so yeah

1082
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:23,880
there wasn't a bad outbreak in the area

1083
00:49:28,340 --> 00:49:26,730
and I was a bit concerned she's just

1084
00:49:31,250 --> 00:49:28,350
adorable well thanks everybody it was a

1085
00:49:33,230 --> 00:49:31,260
great day of filming we had a few stops

1086
00:49:34,670 --> 00:49:33,240
and starts and we we feared we lost all

1087
00:49:38,300 --> 00:49:34,680
the audio at one stage but it was all

1088
00:49:40,490 --> 00:49:38,310
good in here and yeah pretty soon now I

1089
00:49:42,650 --> 00:49:40,500
hope to have that documentary unleashed

1090
00:49:44,270 --> 00:49:42,660
at least on the world to get up the

1091
00:49:46,430 --> 00:49:44,280
noses of the anti-vaxxers everywhere

1092
00:50:05,009 --> 00:49:46,440
that's always a good day when you monoi

1093
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:07,509
hey this is Jay novella from the

1094
00:50:11,079 --> 00:50:09,170
skeptics guide to the universe podcast

1095
00:50:12,910 --> 00:50:11,089
did you know that there are thousands of

1096
00:50:14,650 --> 00:50:12,920
skeptical reports interviews and

1097
00:50:17,349 --> 00:50:14,660
investigations going back to nineteen

1098
00:50:20,589 --> 00:50:17,359
eighty one free to download just visit w

1099
00:50:22,509 --> 00:50:20,599
WC optics com a you click the

1100
00:50:24,489 --> 00:50:22,519
publications link and enjoy almost every

1101
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:24,499
back issue of the skeptic the journal

1102
00:50:27,999 --> 00:50:26,450
from Australian skeptics you can also

1103
00:50:30,279 --> 00:50:28,009
subscribe online and get the latest

1104
00:50:32,319 --> 00:50:30,289
digital or hard copy of this the world's

1105
00:50:35,979 --> 00:50:32,329
second oldest skeptical magazine that's

1106
00:50:50,019 --> 00:50:35,989
ww skeptics com a you or just google

1107
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:50,029
Australian skeptics is my not spooky

1108
00:50:54,730 --> 00:50:51,490
action

1109
00:51:00,740 --> 00:50:57,800
I'm speaking with dr. Peter Davies a for

1110
00:51:03,260 --> 00:51:00,750
macular degeneration Awareness Week what

1111
00:51:06,710 --> 00:51:03,270
is your specialty dr. Davies I'm on a

1112
00:51:09,230 --> 00:51:06,720
retinal surgeon which means that I do

1113
00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:09,240
surgery on the retina on the macula and

1114
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:11,250
the back of the eye as well as that I do

1115
00:51:15,530 --> 00:51:13,890
a lot of cataracts and regimes and other

1116
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:15,540
types of surgeries that people

1117
00:51:20,210 --> 00:51:18,570
understand is associated I can I ask you

1118
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:20,220
what attracted you to that area of

1119
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:22,410
medicine what made you specialize in

1120
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:24,930
that area other than that UK at the time

1121
00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:28,290
and it's usually doctors you have the

1122
00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:30,000
opportunity of working with there was a

1123
00:51:35,570 --> 00:51:32,250
fairly inspirational doctor called dr.

1124
00:51:37,550 --> 00:51:35,580
Robert Johnson and I watched him doing

1125
00:51:39,950 --> 00:51:37,560
retinal surgeries and I thought wow this

1126
00:51:41,180 --> 00:51:39,960
is this is a great thing to do when when

1127
00:51:42,770 --> 00:51:41,190
I think of the retina I think of it's

1128
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:42,780
something that if it's damaged you can't

1129
00:51:48,050 --> 00:51:44,610
normally fix but you can obviously do a

1130
00:51:50,390 --> 00:51:48,060
lot with it that I am ignorant of yes

1131
00:51:52,490 --> 00:51:50,400
your 10 if you think of the eye as a

1132
00:51:54,620 --> 00:51:52,500
golf ball with the lens at the front and

1133
00:51:56,090 --> 00:51:54,630
a lens in the middle and then think of

1134
00:51:58,100 --> 00:51:56,100
the back of the golf ball that's where

1135
00:51:59,930 --> 00:51:58,110
the retina is so the retina is like the

1136
00:52:01,670 --> 00:51:59,940
filming your camera it captures the

1137
00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:01,680
light and sends the signals to the brain

1138
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:05,040
and the retina has a central part in it

1139
00:52:09,650 --> 00:52:07,650
called the macula so we can do several

1140
00:52:13,370 --> 00:52:09,660
things with the retina we can treat

1141
00:52:15,350 --> 00:52:13,380
macular disease and we can also reattach

1142
00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:15,360
the retina sometimes the retina lifts

1143
00:52:19,610 --> 00:52:17,730
away from the back of the eye that's

1144
00:52:22,100 --> 00:52:19,620
what we call a retinal detachment and we

1145
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:22,110
can put that back with surgery is there

1146
00:52:26,420 --> 00:52:23,570
something there's the holy grail of

1147
00:52:29,990 --> 00:52:26,430
retina surgery that can't yet be done

1148
00:52:32,450 --> 00:52:30,000
but you'd hope 11 can be one day I think

1149
00:52:35,690 --> 00:52:32,460
we all want to be able to get into the

1150
00:52:38,270 --> 00:52:35,700
genetic code of the cells at the back of

1151
00:52:40,970 --> 00:52:38,280
the eye and reprogram the genetics

1152
00:52:45,050 --> 00:52:40,980
because the problem with macular

1153
00:52:47,420 --> 00:52:45,060
degeneration is partly a genetic break

1154
00:52:50,540 --> 00:52:47,430
down the cells just stopped working the

1155
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:50,550
way they was designed to do and there's

1156
00:52:54,890 --> 00:52:53,490
been lots of research over 20 years or

1157
00:52:58,490 --> 00:52:54,900
more as long as I've been doing

1158
00:53:01,490 --> 00:52:58,500
ophthalmology to try and get in and

1159
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:01,500
replace or repair or change the genetics

1160
00:53:05,270 --> 00:53:03,690
in the cells at the back of the eye is

1161
00:53:07,460 --> 00:53:05,280
partial is the reason for this because

1162
00:53:08,150 --> 00:53:07,470
the I wasn't designed as to last as long

1163
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:08,160
as we

1164
00:53:16,700 --> 00:53:13,650
now yes several theories um finally the

1165
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:16,710
AI has very good protective mechanisms

1166
00:53:21,710 --> 00:53:19,530
built into it instance UV light from the

1167
00:53:25,039 --> 00:53:21,720
phone or from welding that gets absorbed

1168
00:53:27,799 --> 00:53:25,049
in the very front layer of the eye but

1169
00:53:29,779 --> 00:53:27,809
the blue frequency like to carry a lot

1170
00:53:32,089 --> 00:53:29,789
of energy now some of that like it's

1171
00:53:34,490 --> 00:53:32,099
absorbed in the lens as you get older

1172
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:34,500
the lens becomes a bit yellow and then

1173
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:37,530
in the macula there is actually proteins

1174
00:53:45,500 --> 00:53:42,450
that absorb the high energy and when we

1175
00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:45,510
ask patients to take lutein as a vitamin

1176
00:53:50,990 --> 00:53:47,910
supplement we think that that helps to

1177
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:51,000
increase the pigments in the macula but

1178
00:53:55,730 --> 00:53:53,490
yeah I really eyes do wear out with age

1179
00:53:59,059 --> 00:53:55,740
and that's the fundamental problem of

1180
00:54:01,069 --> 00:53:59,069
macular degeneration so it is usually

1181
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:01,079
genetic but is there anything we can do

1182
00:54:05,059 --> 00:54:02,970
throughout our life to avoid damage to

1183
00:54:06,349 --> 00:54:05,069
the macula yeah there certainly is as

1184
00:54:08,420 --> 00:54:06,359
you point out you can't change your

1185
00:54:11,420 --> 00:54:08,430
jeans you can't change your pants but

1186
00:54:13,250 --> 00:54:11,430
you can limit your risk the first thing

1187
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:13,260
is to avoid cigarette smoke that's

1188
00:54:19,819 --> 00:54:16,770
really really important cigarette smoke

1189
00:54:22,250 --> 00:54:19,829
contains toxins that harm the protective

1190
00:54:24,380 --> 00:54:22,260
mechanisms at the back of the eye if you

1191
00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:24,390
smoke you're twice as likely to get

1192
00:54:29,150 --> 00:54:26,640
macular degeneration and get it younger

1193
00:54:31,549 --> 00:54:29,160
and get a more serious version of it so

1194
00:54:34,130 --> 00:54:31,559
that's really important the other thing

1195
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:34,140
is to have a really healthy diet and

1196
00:54:41,150 --> 00:54:37,650
lifestyle eating plenty of green leafy

1197
00:54:44,329 --> 00:54:41,160
vegetables and fresh fruit and these

1198
00:54:47,210 --> 00:54:44,339
things can be discussed with your GP and

1199
00:54:49,579 --> 00:54:47,220
a nutritional if you see one but it's

1200
00:54:52,730 --> 00:54:49,589
very important that your food is fresh

1201
00:54:55,069 --> 00:54:52,740
and healthy and tell me dr. Peter Davies

1202
00:54:56,990 --> 00:54:55,079
I've heard optometrists say that you can

1203
00:54:58,700 --> 00:54:57,000
look into the eye and the eye tends to

1204
00:55:01,339 --> 00:54:58,710
mirror the way the cardiovascular system

1205
00:55:04,609 --> 00:55:01,349
is throughout the entire body is that

1206
00:55:06,950 --> 00:55:04,619
necessarily true it is true when you

1207
00:55:08,809 --> 00:55:06,960
look at the back of the eye you directly

1208
00:55:11,630 --> 00:55:08,819
see blood vessels and blood vessels

1209
00:55:14,950 --> 00:55:11,640
apart of the cardiovascular system now

1210
00:55:18,140 --> 00:55:14,960
actually in our GPS do a very good job

1211
00:55:21,470 --> 00:55:18,150
managing things like high blood pressure

1212
00:55:21,980 --> 00:55:21,480
and high cholesterol so as I doctors we

1213
00:55:25,220 --> 00:55:21,990
don't

1214
00:55:27,290 --> 00:55:25,230
be as much change in the back of the eye

1215
00:55:29,150 --> 00:55:27,300
from high blood pressure and high crest

1216
00:55:32,330 --> 00:55:29,160
are we do occasionally but nothing like

1217
00:55:34,820 --> 00:55:32,340
we used to see but diabetes attacks

1218
00:55:37,670 --> 00:55:34,830
blood vessels and that's why all

1219
00:55:39,770 --> 00:55:37,680
diabetics need our checks because we can

1220
00:55:41,510 --> 00:55:39,780
literally look into the eye and we can

1221
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:41,520
see the changes in the blood vessels and

1222
00:55:45,740 --> 00:55:43,290
that gives us an idea of what's going on

1223
00:55:48,020 --> 00:55:45,750
elsewhere in the body now I myself had a

1224
00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:48,030
macular check about a year or two ago

1225
00:55:52,430 --> 00:55:49,680
and they took a photo of it and they

1226
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:52,440
said it looked like a textbook macula at

1227
00:55:57,140 --> 00:55:54,810
the moment my dad does have some macular

1228
00:55:59,870 --> 00:55:57,150
degeneration he's in his 80s now how

1229
00:56:02,270 --> 00:55:59,880
often should i get my macular checked if

1230
00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:02,280
you're over 50 you should see your

1231
00:56:09,350 --> 00:56:05,910
optometrist every two years because one

1232
00:56:12,170 --> 00:56:09,360
in seven people over the age of 50 have

1233
00:56:15,380 --> 00:56:12,180
some signs of aging at the back of the

1234
00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:15,390
eyes once you get over 65 you probably

1235
00:56:19,850 --> 00:56:17,760
should clear the optometrist every year

1236
00:56:21,859 --> 00:56:19,860
the optometrist is the best person to

1237
00:56:24,470 --> 00:56:21,869
see because they have good quality

1238
00:56:27,020 --> 00:56:24,480
cameras and their practices are set up

1239
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:27,030
to be able to screen you for I disease

1240
00:56:32,030 --> 00:56:29,490
such as macular degeneration here where

1241
00:56:34,790 --> 00:56:32,040
i work at newcastle hospital our job is

1242
00:56:36,890 --> 00:56:34,800
we treat you and so if there's a problem

1243
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:36,900
there that the optometrist is concerned

1244
00:56:40,910 --> 00:56:39,450
about that family step in what if you do

1245
00:56:43,940 --> 00:56:40,920
have other complicating issues like

1246
00:56:45,950 --> 00:56:43,950
myself I have some glaucoma going on is

1247
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:45,960
that necessarily affect the macula or

1248
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:49,650
not glaucoma there are different

1249
00:56:54,770 --> 00:56:51,810
glaucoma's there's actually many types

1250
00:56:56,450 --> 00:56:54,780
of glaucoma but the one we most often

1251
00:56:59,000 --> 00:56:56,460
talk about is when there is raised

1252
00:57:01,370 --> 00:56:59,010
pressure in the eye and that increased

1253
00:57:04,310 --> 00:57:01,380
pressure has an effect on the optic

1254
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:04,320
nerve where the optic nerve inserts into

1255
00:57:09,260 --> 00:57:06,330
the back of the eyeball again thinking

1256
00:57:11,180 --> 00:57:09,270
of our golf ball that we have the nerve

1257
00:57:14,210 --> 00:57:11,190
is a vulnerable because it's difficult

1258
00:57:15,830 --> 00:57:14,220
to get a good blood supply for the optic

1259
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:15,840
nerve so when the pressure goes up

1260
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:17,850
that's where we tend to see the damage

1261
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:19,890
at the head of the optic nerve at the

1262
00:57:24,740 --> 00:57:22,290
back of the eye so glaucoma doesn't

1263
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:24,750
usually affect the macular in very very

1264
00:57:29,630 --> 00:57:27,570
severe cases of glaucoma the macula

1265
00:57:32,990 --> 00:57:29,640
becomes affected but usually glaucoma

1266
00:57:35,450 --> 00:57:33,000
affects your peripheral vision first now

1267
00:57:37,130 --> 00:57:35,460
patients aren't going to notice

1268
00:57:39,710 --> 00:57:37,140
loss of their peripheral vision and

1269
00:57:42,590 --> 00:57:39,720
that's why it's very very important that

1270
00:57:44,870 --> 00:57:42,600
everybody is seeing an optometrist to

1271
00:57:47,060 --> 00:57:44,880
look for changes of I disease such as

1272
00:57:49,940 --> 00:57:47,070
glaucoma because patients aren't going

1273
00:57:52,340 --> 00:57:49,950
to notice loss of their provision but

1274
00:57:54,710 --> 00:57:52,350
they will notice loss of central vision

1275
00:57:57,500 --> 00:57:54,720
and that's something that we can talk

1276
00:57:59,030 --> 00:57:57,510
about how to monitor your eyes and dr.

1277
00:58:00,440 --> 00:57:59,040
Peter Davies what's the first thing

1278
00:58:02,270 --> 00:58:00,450
someone can do is having a listen to

1279
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:02,280
this and going well maybe I should check

1280
00:58:06,830 --> 00:58:04,170
out the macula maybe not you're just

1281
00:58:08,750 --> 00:58:06,840
saying a simple optometrist visit huh if

1282
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:08,760
there's one thing that they can do that

1283
00:58:12,650 --> 00:58:11,010
even simpler and what I'd like all your

1284
00:58:15,170 --> 00:58:12,660
listeners to do whilst they're listening

1285
00:58:17,390 --> 00:58:15,180
to me talking right now is pick up their

1286
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:17,400
right hand and with the palm of their

1287
00:58:21,590 --> 00:58:19,170
hand I want them to cover their right

1288
00:58:24,470 --> 00:58:21,600
eye and I want them to look out of their

1289
00:58:26,660 --> 00:58:24,480
left eye only in other words I'm asking

1290
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:26,670
people to test their vision one at a

1291
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:29,130
time because what happens in my practice

1292
00:58:34,220 --> 00:58:32,490
is so often patients come to me to

1293
00:58:37,310 --> 00:58:34,230
macular degeneration but they haven't

1294
00:58:39,950 --> 00:58:37,320
been aware of because the brain is very

1295
00:58:42,290 --> 00:58:39,960
good at tricking you so one I could be

1296
00:58:44,450 --> 00:58:42,300
losing vision and you're not noticing it

1297
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:44,460
you're not aware of it so I want all

1298
00:58:47,900 --> 00:58:46,290
your listeners right now cover that

1299
00:58:50,090 --> 00:58:47,910
right eye and check the vision in the

1300
00:58:52,730 --> 00:58:50,100
left side does it seem normal does it

1301
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:52,740
seem like once they cover the writer I

1302
00:58:57,940 --> 00:58:55,200
want them to swap pick up your left hand

1303
00:59:00,680 --> 00:58:57,950
cover your left eye and check your eyes

1304
00:59:04,310 --> 00:59:00,690
individually and if patients did that

1305
00:59:07,100 --> 00:59:04,320
every week or every two weeks I think

1306
00:59:09,410 --> 00:59:07,110
that we would detect macular disease far

1307
00:59:11,690 --> 00:59:09,420
sooner than we currently do in the

1308
00:59:14,150 --> 00:59:11,700
Hunter Valley and that means I would be

1309
00:59:16,190 --> 00:59:14,160
getting to treat people earlier than I

1310
00:59:18,770 --> 00:59:16,200
currently getting to cheat them and we

1311
00:59:19,910 --> 00:59:18,780
were better overall visual results and

1312
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:19,920
if you think you are noticing a

1313
00:59:24,170 --> 00:59:21,210
difference then you go to the

1314
00:59:26,990 --> 00:59:24,180
optometrist absolutely absolute straight

1315
00:59:29,630 --> 00:59:27,000
away if you notice reduced vision in

1316
00:59:31,940 --> 00:59:29,640
either I you don't wait for the next

1317
00:59:33,830 --> 00:59:31,950
available appointment you go and pick up

1318
00:59:36,530 --> 00:59:33,840
the phone your knock on the door and you

1319
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:36,540
get seen immediately as a retinal

1320
00:59:41,570 --> 00:59:39,330
surgeon one of the surgeries I do is I

1321
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:41,580
can drain the blood if there's any

1322
00:59:45,950 --> 00:59:43,410
bleeding at the back of the eye I can

1323
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:45,960
drain that blood away from the macula

1324
00:59:49,470 --> 00:59:48,330
but patient patient costas feeling

1325
00:59:51,690 --> 00:59:49,480
within

1326
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:51,700
day or two of the hemorrhage occurring

1327
00:59:57,420 --> 00:59:54,400
okay that's why it's so important that

1328
00:59:58,859 --> 00:59:57,430
people present straight away look thank

1329
01:00:01,440 --> 00:59:58,869
you very much for your time at dr. Peter

1330
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:01,450
Davies and roll on that increased DNA

1331
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:28,970
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1332
01:00:34,220 --> 01:00:31,050
zone and thank you fred the cat hello

1333
01:00:36,260 --> 01:00:34,230
who I gave up his cat post so I could

1334
01:00:38,090 --> 01:00:36,270
set my microphone on top of that he's

1335
01:00:39,620 --> 01:00:38,100
just in my arms at the moment you're

1336
01:00:45,410 --> 01:00:39,630
going to send me out to the listeners

1337
01:00:46,970 --> 01:00:45,420
Fred and hipper work with children and

1338
01:00:51,590 --> 01:00:46,980
animals all right I'll put you down to

1339
01:00:52,910 --> 01:00:51,600
coffee guy got there he goes oh we got

1340
01:00:55,580 --> 01:00:52,920
him out I wonder if you heard that he's

1341
01:00:57,290 --> 01:00:55,590
walking away he's most upset I think he

1342
01:00:59,300 --> 01:00:57,300
wants he's cut post back it's all right

1343
01:01:00,890 --> 01:00:59,310
you'll get it back in a minute coming up

1344
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:00,900
on the skeptic zone in the coming weeks

1345
01:01:05,870 --> 01:01:03,330
even more interviews from Iran sir give

1346
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:05,880
at the QED conference in Manchester and

1347
01:01:09,590 --> 01:01:07,530
I think in a couple of weeks I'm going

1348
01:01:12,710 --> 01:01:09,600
to pop back up to the Blue Mountains for

1349
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:12,720
am a magic festival hmm I think job

1350
01:01:17,450 --> 01:01:14,850
alabaster Peter bandage and I might be

1351
01:01:20,780 --> 01:01:17,460
wandering around seeing what we can find

1352
01:01:23,090 --> 01:01:20,790
there but for this week this is Richard

1353
01:01:25,490 --> 01:01:23,100
Saunders signing off with fed the cat

1354
01:01:31,370 --> 01:01:25,500
after get some water or something from

1355
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:31,380
Sydney Australia you've been listening

1356
01:01:40,250 --> 01:01:35,570
to the skeptic zone visit our website at